What will be the basis for future persecution of the church? There is increasing news that there will be a significant terrorist attack in the coming months. This is a matter when and not if. The attack will obviously come from the hands of radical Muslims with exclusivistic theology. Question: How many more attacks will it take for the politically correct governments of the world to outlaw exclusivistic theology as inherently dangerous and a threat to national security? If you identify with “fundamentalist” Christianity, I’m sure it is irritating for you to be identified with “fundamentalist” Islam. Now it is only a superficial connection, but how would you like for it to be a real connection that bears fruit in persecution?
Listen to the words of our future President, Barrack Obama: “I'm a big believer in tolerance . . . I'm suspicious of too much certainty in the pursuit of understanding just because I think people are limited in their understanding . . . there's an enormous amount of damage done around the world in the name of religion and certainty . . . I think that the difficult thing about any religion, including Christianity, is that at some level there is a call to evangelize and prostelytize. There's the belief, certainly in some quarters, that people haven't embraced Jesus Christ as their personal savior that they're going to hell . . . I find it hard to believe that my God would consign four-fifths of the world to hell. I can't imagine that my God would allow some little Hindu kid in India who never interacts with the Christian faith to somehow burn for all eternity. That's just not part of my religious makeup.”
I also noticed a recent video on CNN where a pastor was berated by Rick Sanchez for believing in an exclusive Gospel. The reporter quoted several “authoritative” sources (the Pope, Billy Graham, and Barrack Obama [ha!]) in attempt to convince the pastor:
Pope John Paul II: “. . . it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour.”
Billy Graham: “I used to believe that pagans in far-off countries were lost --were going to hell. I no longer believe that. I believe that there are other ways of recognizing the existence of God.”
Barrack Obama: “I am a Christian . . . So, I have a deep faith. I’m rooted in the Christian tradition. I believe that there are many paths to the same place, and that is a belief that there is a higher power, a belief that we are connected as a people.”
Obviously we have a higher authority than Rick Sanchez, but this shows a growing unanimity among various religions to come together in peace and unity; recognizing a common higher power shared by all. Religious unity, financial unity, and then . . [insert dispensational theology]?
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64 comments:
Liberals will never persecute anyone, they believe in human rights.
Obama says he is pro capital punishment, and he is "at the bottom of the barrel" liberal. Would have never guessed that, but on the other hand, he does endorse infanticide.
Obama, as nice as he appears, is a scary guy in my opinion. Not scary in that I'm scared scared, but scary in that he will be a horrific leader of this nation, and make some very ungodly decisions.
Matthew, human rights like abortion and euthanasia? Liberals are leading the way in human rights all right! I can only imagine what pretexts they will use in the future. That said, I don't think these classes of liberal and conservative will make much of a difference in this regard in the tribulation period. I think all unbelievers will be given over.
Liberals dont persecute anyone.....
as long as you see their perspective!!
Surely the quote from Billy Graham is taken out of context?!?!!?!
Gerald, unfortunately the Graham quote is not out of context. He is on record numerous times saying such things from decades ago.
I am right with you Gerald. I thought for sure the Pope and Billy Graham quote were taken out of context, but then I found this page (http://theshepherdsvoice.org/catholic/billy_graham_politician_preacher_prophet_heretic.html) and it seems that his beliefs differ from mine quite a bit.
Its made me sad to watch that video and see a Bible believing preacher being grilled for his beliefs. I thought he handled it properly, combating lies with scripture though.
Yea, I heard Graham speak once with Robert Schuller and said something to that effect.
Here is one video of that.
I'm a Christian and absolutely agree with Pope John Paul, Billy Graham, and Obama here!
The idea of universal salvation is a beautiful one that has been silenced for far too long. Anne Bronte was writing about it in the 1840s. It was a belief to which she held firmly, and she documented at least 30 Bible verses to support it.
She famously told her pastor something along these lines: "If I'm wrong, I doubt God will be angry with me for wanting all humanity to experience Heaven."
A portion of her poem "A Word to the Elect" (1843) is as follows:
". . . when you, looking on your fellow-men,
Behold them doomed to endless misery,
How can you talk of joy and rapture then?-
May God withhold such cruel joy from me!
That none deserve eternal bliss I know;
Unmerited the grace in mercy given;
But none shall sink to everlasting woe,
That have not well deserved the wrath of Heaven.
- - -
And oh! there lives within my heart
A hope, long nursed by me;
(And should its cheering ray depart,
How dark my soul would be!)
That as in Adam all have died,
In Christ shall all men live;
And ever round His throne abide,
Eternal praise to give.
That even the wicked shall at last
Be fitted for the skies;
And when their dreadful doom is past,
To life and light arise.
I ask not how remote the day,
Nor what the sinners' woe,
Before their dross is purged away;
Enough for me, to know
That when the cup of wrath is drained,
The metal purified,
They'll cling to what they once disdained,
And live by Him that died."
Anon, I'm curious what you think about the biblical doctrine of hell? And what about Jesus that talked more about hell than heaven? Thanks for your comment.
Hi, Jonathan--
I'm actually writing a paper on Anne Bronte, who was very religious, and found lots of good info about universalism on the tentmaker.org site. This link references Jesus's teaching on Hell, or the more appropriately translated, Gehenna: http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html
In summary: "From these twelve Gehenna passages, we learn that Gehenna would be the familiar valley on the southwest side of Jerusalem where an imminent fiery judgment was coming on the Jews of the generation in which Jesus was crucified. It was unquenchable fire on that generation in that generation. It was a national judgment against the Jews. Gehenna was to the Jews of Jesus' day what it was to the Jews of Jeremiah's day-where the term originated-the city dump! But it entailed all the horror of being rejected and abandoned by God to the merciless enemy who surrounded the gates and who would cause their dead carcasses to be thrown into the burning, worm-infested place. Thus, when Jesus used the term He used it in the same sense that Jeremiah did: as Jerusalem then was abandoned to Babylon's invasion, so Jerusalem of Jesus' day was about to be abandoned to Roman invasion-unless they repented. None of these hell passages say that anyone of our day can go to hell. None of them associate hell with Satan. None of them say that Satan's domain is hell. Though they speak of men being killed and destroyed in Gehenna, none of them speak of men being tormented there."
Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours!
Anonymous,
One of the wonderful things the New Testament teaches is that salvation is by grace alone. Grace is the entirely unmerited favor that God bestows on undeserving sinners and something that is impossible to earn in any way whatsoever. If the display grace was an obligation on God's part, it would not be grace. The genuine apprehension of grace removes from human beings that most pernicous sin we suffer from, pride in ourselves. Grace causes undeserving sinners to fall on their knees and humbly acknowledge before God that they do not desrve His pardon and salvation from sin and his just judgment of our rebellion against Him. But divine grace also allows the repentant sinner to embrace fully that which is undeserved because God's Son Jesus Christ has become so precious to them.
Unfortunately, those that see no need of grace but assume that God is obligated to save them has sorely misunderstood the gospel. The gospel is not good news unless we see that the human race justly stands under God's judgment without any excuse. We must first acknowledge this fact and then perhaps we may have eyes to see that God graciously offers to pardon those who otherwise rightly stand under the sentence of eternal death. The notion of universal salvation flattens out these stark realities and ultimately domesticates the good news of salvation to something unremarkable and pedestrian; a gospel devoid of a God of justice and thus devoid of a pretext for the display of His grace.
Anon, I can only suggest that you read the biblical texts for yourself. For example, Matthew 25:
Matt. 25:41 ¶ “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels . . . .
Matt. 25:46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
or
Rev. 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Anon,
You have slipped into the theology of human imagination. Paul put it this way in Acts 17:29-31
Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”
Wow. Lots of responses.
MSC: I certainly don't think of grace as God's obligation. Grace is God's gift. I believe that at the judgement God will offer grace to all, not because he is obligated to do so, but because of his love for us. Remember: Jesus's dying words, "Father forgive them," referred to those who were rejecting him -- in the most horrific way! -- not just to those who believed in him. He intercedes for all. This is good news indeed.
***
Jonathan: I do read the Biblical texts myself. I've read the Bible cover to cover, in fact.
In Matthew 25, the Greek word for "punishment" is from kolasis. Kolasis actually conveys the idea of punishment for the correction of the offender. If it is punishment for the correction of the offender, that means that the wickedness in the person is what is being addressed, and not the taking of the life of that person. Death can not correct anyone. It is the input of new knowledge and understanding when they are resurrected that will change them. They all need to be refined, by someone else, which is part of a fuller picture of grace. God is doing them the greatest favour anyone could ever do for them: the fullness of His grace is His ability to make sure that everyone takes hold of His free gift of eternal life, and all the benefits that He has to give them.
In Revelation 14, the Greek word for "forever and ever" is aion, which can be translated as "an age." -- and is in such verses as II Timothy 1:9; I Corinthians 10:11; and Revelations 18:10-17.
***
Jazzycat, I certainly haven't imagined the following verses that support universal salvation:
Please note the use of "every" and "all." These Scriptures apply to all people, not merely some people. And what they say is that all people will eventually come to Christ and be saved.
Isaiah 45:22-23 (KJV)
"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."
John 12:32 (KJV)
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
1 Timothy 4:10-11 (KJV)
"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach."
Philippians 2:9-11 (KJV)
"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV)
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
Anon,
Jesus said that He laid down His life for His sheep; those who trust Him, and hear Him and follow His word, and to them He grants eternal life.
He also said that the Jews, whose father was the devil, were not His sheep, and so they didn't trust Him, for that very fact.
What do you say to that?
Dear Don,
I say that you're forgetting how often, and with what love, Jesus spoke of not only his sheep, but also his lost sheep. Think as well of the parables of the lost coin and lost son. Jesus rejoices, especially, over gathering "lost" things.
In my research, I've become a great fan of William Barclay, the late Scottish biblical scholar best known for his New Testament commentary series -- The Daily Study Bible. In his autobiography Barclay describes why he decided that universalism was the most faithful understanding of the Christian faith. I find much of what he says here convincing.
"I am a convinced universalist. I believe that in the end all men will be gathered into the love of God. In the early days Origen was the great name connected with universalism. I would believe with Origen that universalism is no easy thing. Origen believed that after death there were many who would need prolonged instruction, the sternest discipline, even the severest punishment before they were fit for the presence of God. Origen did not eliminate hell; he believed that some people would have to go to heaven via hell. He believed that even at the end of the day there would be some on whom the scars remained. He did not believe in eternal punishment, but he did see the possibility of eternal penalty. And so the choice is whether we accept God's offer and invitation willingly, or take the long and terrible way round through ages of purification.
Gregory of Nyssa offered three reasons why he believed in universalism. First, he believed in it because of the character of God. "Being good, God entertains pity for fallen man; being wise, he is not ignorant of the means for his recovery." Second, he believed in it because of the nature of evil. Evil must in the end be moved out of existence, "so that the absolutely non-existent should cease to be at all." Evil is essentially negative and doomed to non-existence. Third, he believed in it because of the purpose of punishment. The purpose of punishment is always remedial. Its aim is "to get the good separated from the evil and to attract it into the communion of blessedness." Punishment will hurt, but it is like the fire which separates the alloy from the gold; it is like the surgery which removes the diseased thing; it is like the cautery which burns out that which cannot be removed any other way.
But I want to set down not the arguments of others but the thoughts which have persuaded me personally of universal salvation.
First, there is the fact that there are things in the New Testament which more than justify this belief. Jesus said: "I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself" (John 12:32). Paul writes to the Romans: "God has consigned all men to disobedience that he may have mercy on all" (Rom. 11:32). He writes to the Corinthians: "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22); and he looks to the final total triumph when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:28). In the First Letter to Timothy we read of God "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth," and of Christ Jesus "who gave himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tim 2:4-6). The New Testament itself is not in the least afraid of the word all.
Second, one of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life. The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment. The word for eternal is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato - who may have invented the word - plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to out it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give.
Third, I believe that it is impossible to set limits to the grace of God. I believe that not only in this world, but in any other world there may be, the grace of God is still effective, still operative, still at work. I do not believe that the operation of the grace of God is limited to this world. I believe that the grace of God is as wide as the universe.
Fourth, I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things will be subject to him, and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:24-28). For me this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside the love of God at the end of time, it means that that one man has defeated the love of God - and that is impossible. Further, there is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of God. If God was no more than a King or Judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out. But God is not only King and Judge, God is Father - he is indeed Father more than anything else. No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. The only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God."
"If one man remains outside the love of God at the end of time, it means that that one man has defeated the love of God - and that is impossible."
This is purely humanistic wisdom, and deadly false teaching.
Anon, you need to read the whole Bible, and not take verses here and there, and take them for what you want them to mean.
The Bible is clear that "the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." John 5:28-29
And Anon, you didn't answer my question, but simply share your human view of things, with others past views.
What does this saying of Jesus mean: "I am the good Shepherd. The good Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. ... Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My Life that I may take it again.... the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, 'How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.'
Jesus answered.. I TOLD YOU< and you DO NOT BELIEVE....you DO NOT BELIEVE, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT MY SHEEP, as I have said to you.
My SHEEP hear My voice, and I KNOW them, and they FOLLOW Me. And I give THEM ETERNAL LIFE, and they shall NEVER perish."
What does this passage say to you Anon about the Jews who don't believe, BECAUSE they are not Christ's sheep?
If you don't want to answer, that's alright, but please don't go another tangent of human thinking.
Anon, since eternal life and eternal punishment are juxtaposed in Matthew 25:46, what is your position on eternal life? In other words, if eternal punishment is not eternal, it logically follows that eternal life is not eternal. As for your comment on "aoinios," a simple Greek word study will show that it is impossible to suggest that the word must alone refer to God (you say, "aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God").
Also, the context of Matthew 25 is the judgment seat. What remedial punishment exists after the judgment? Do you believe in some form of purgatory to explain these texts (cognitive dissonance)? Of course we could talk about Revelation 20 and the lake of fire where people are "tormented day and night forever and ever," but Matthew 25 will do for now.
Anon.
You said:
"If one man remains outside the love of God at the end of time, it means that that one man has defeated the love of God - and that is impossible."
The point I made in my other comment is that it is impossible to have a proper conception of God's grace (i.e. the undeserved display of His salvific love) without the understanding that humans rightly stand under his just judgment. God is obligated to meet the sanctions of his justice when his law has been violated. If he does not punish evil then he himself is unjust and therefore evil. Even in the display of saving grace the demands of God's justice in the sanctions of his law are fully mete out in the death of Christ who serves as a substitue for sinners (i.e. lawbreakers) who by faith entrust themselves to His atoning work on their behalf.
Thus, it is incorrect to say God's love can be defeated by the exercise of his retributive justice. In fact, I contend that you are indeed saying via this statement that God is obligated to extend his saving grace to all men lest his love should be defeated. That destroys the definition of saving grace (i.e. undeserved favor). God could save all men if he so chose to do so. God is obligated to meet the demands of his justice but he is not obligated to extend his grace to anyone. The fact that he does extend his grace to repantant sinners speaks of His absolute freedom. Universalism unwittingly restricts God freedom in order to fit what I believe is a shallow sentimentalism about His love. Such a view I believe disregards other fundamental charateristics of the nature of God (i.e. his righteousness, holiness, justice, fairness, etc.) and the actions that spring from his nature.
"God could save all men if he so chose to do so. God is obligated to meet the demands of his justice but he is not obligated to extend his grace to anyone."
That's a fine statement right there.
And I think most people, and even Christians, have a big time problem with it, and so we have Openness theologians, who teach falsely that God doesn't know the future.
MCG: I think God will meet the demands of justice. The idea of universal salvation does not mean that punishment isn't involved. Men must be stripped of evil before they're fitted for heaven and God's presence. I referenced Origen in my last post, an early Christian scholar, who suggested that the punishment for some may be so intense that they'll bear the scars in heaven! But the purpose of punishment is not to annihilate but to rehabilitate.
Jonathan: Good question about the eternal life/punishment description. After doing some research, I've discovered that some think of the distinction this way: the words aion/aionian represent an indefinite, not necessarily infinite, duration. Since we know that God transcends time, indefinite is more synonomous with infinite here. We will be with God for an infinite amount of time. Punishment, however, both for those in Biblical times and today, is conceived of as a finite event. It just doesn't make sense for God to punish infinitely. One writer put it this way, "The threat of eternal torture is like a gun pointed to a person's head. It turns a loving invitation into spiritual rape."
Others, though, stick to the interpretation of the idea of infinity -- or the word "eternal" -- for both. Here is your question rephrased, with another answer:
"The word for 'everlasting' in this sentence is the same Greek word as 'eternal' in this sentence: aionion, from aionios. You can not make one mean 'eternal' and not the other. So how do you reconcile eternal punishment with eternal life, resulting with everyone having eternal life, that is life as God has it, with His nature, and free will?
The Greek word there for 'punishment' is kolasin, from kolasis, and it can simply mean corrective punishment. That is, punishment that results in the person being corrected. But not only that, the adjective aionion, eternal, tells you something about the noun, which in this case is the corrective punishment. It tells you that the result of the correction will be permanent, or eternal. It is not saying that people are going to suffer eternally, and it is not saying that people are going to die eternally. It is saying that people are going to be corrected, and it is the correction that will be eternal. Correction is necessary for eternal life; without correction, perfection is impossible."
A complicated answer for a complicated question. :)
As for the second part of your post, I guess "purgatory" is a pretty appropriate word to explain what I think happens to some after the judgement. -- a sort of temporary Hell (place for punishment/correction), if you will. As for "the lake of fire," consider the many times God/Love is described as fire. Then consider the following reading:
"There is a 'burning' that one suffers as a result of resisting the divine will, which simply stated is to love. But burning within is a universal symbol of love. Love is often symbolized by fire. God is even called 'fire' in the Bible. (Ex. 3.21, Heb. 12.29, and more)
Imagine God as a huge fire—a fire of love, and you are a small flame in that fire, burning with love as God burns with love. The huge fire doesn't burn you, it cannot burn you, because you yourself are fire. For you, fire is room temperature, it is your environment, your home. This is heaven. You can experience it now. You have probably experienced it to some degree already.
Now imagine a different scenario, that you are cold. If love is fire, you are an ice cube. You are frozen, cold to God, yourself, your fellow men. How will the fire of love feel to you? It burns! The holy fire of love now burns you, being hundreds of degrees warmer than you. It threatens to overwhelm you, you seek to distance yourself from fire for your survival. But there is no escape. The divine Presence is everywhere, an omnipresent Law, and there is nowhere where unlovingness does not create suffering, whether one can disguise the pain or not. This is hell. You can experience it now. You have probably experienced it to some degree already.
However, suppose that instead of trying to flee the fire (which is impossible), you decide to become fire, will it still burn you? Of course not. Both punishment and reward are simply the consequences of moving in either the toward-God or the away-from-God directions. Move toward God, move toward Love, become fire, and 'burning' stops; move away from God, away from Love, become cool, and burning increases. We can see that the Judgment is simply the way things are, since God is love. To love is to be spiritually present with God, to burn with divine love, and enjoy divine Presence. To be unloving is to be spiritually absent from God, hurt by the omnipresent demands of love, and deprived of the benefits of Presence. It is never called the 'last judgment,' but 'the last day.' It's not a punishing verdict, but an eternal principle. The law of love is irrevocable. But as self-inflicted pain, it is 'age-long,' aionian. Nothing implies that that there is no longer choice, nor change, nor movement of the soul."
Don: I have read the whole Bible, and I could just as easily accuse you of taking verses here and there, and taking them for what you want them to mean. The Biblical verses that Universalists use to support the idea of universal salvation are often ignored or glossed over by the Annilationists (btw, these are the terms used to describe our separate camps).
As for the sheep, I just don't see Christ as ignoring the possibility that those who aren't His sheep will not eventually become His sheep.
But, hey, maybe you're right! Maybe God will torture 4/5ths of the world forever. I just hope that you won't be disappointed if you're wrong! Or that you'll resent sharing Heaven with anyone (and everyone) God decides, in His infinite goodness and mercy, to accept.
I think you're a good man, Don, and that you won't.
"Or that you'll resent sharing Heaven with anyone (and everyone) God decides, in His infinite goodness and mercy, to accept.
I think you're a good man, Don, and that you won't." -anon
That's an interesting thought.
I'm not good, first off. And whoever enters into the kingdom of heaven is totally unworthy and not good as well.
Jesus is the One, the only One who is good.
And th only way God will accept one into His kingdom is if they trust in His Son, who died for their sin, and who also lived for them as well, and so God imputes our sin to Christ, and Christ's righteousness to us, those who repent of their old life, and trust in the Gospel.
Don't be deceived Anon: "For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience . Therefore do not be partakers with them." Eph. 5:5-7
I said that you're a good man, Don, not a perfect one.
I agree that none of us are perfect, nor will we be until we are made so by Christ at the final judgment, when we will be fitted for Heaven and taken -- by Christ -- into God's presence.
Of course there will be no fornicators, idolaters, etc. in Heaven, because those sins will have to be checked at the door! Once that happens, "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."
Don't forget John's reminder to the early Christians: "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:1-2
Christ is the atoning sacrifice for the world world, which (last I checked) includes Jews, Muslims, etc.
"Of course there will be no fornicators, idolaters, etc. in Heaven, because those sins will have to be checked at the door!"
Checked at the door? How so?
Seems God's not going to check sins at His door, according to His Holy Word: "He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. BUT [and this is a terrifying BUT] the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
I know you simply take the clear meaning of this very serious truth of God's judgment as whatever makes it not serious, and so this will probably be my last comment Anon.
I pray you will have your eyes opened to the truth of God's wrath, before it is too late.
Anon.
The position you take has serious ramifications. If you are wrong then many who embrace this theology will have a false assurance of salvation. It is appointed once unto men to die and after this comes the judgment (Heb. 9:27). This is not corrective punishment, it is retributive punishment. Heb. 10:26-31 does not paint a prety picture for those that miscontrue the truth of the gospel. Check out the sources; the terms used for corrective punishment are also used for retributive judgment. Careful attention to context will dictate the usage.
The use of "retribution" (ekdikesin) in 2 Thess. 1:8 is not corrective by any stretch of the imagination. Rather it is the penalty (diken) for rejecting the gospel and those who do not know the Lord (i.e. have no personal saving relationship with him - vs. 8). This is eternal ruin (olethron). Only in vain will one seek to contrue eternal as less than eternal here or elsewhere.
Your view has a certain sentimental appeal to it, but it dangerously leads people into a false security. I encourage you to put aside any preconcieved prejudices you might have and study the topic with disinterest toward what may seem appealing. Instead, pursue the truth with a view to accepting the outcome wherever the evidence best leads even when the truth may not sit well with what one would like to believe. I have changed my mind on many difficult and otherwise self-inflating doctrines that did not really accord with the full spectrum of the Scripture's teaching. The view most commenters here are espousing has been the carefully considered view of the most respected Bible students in the history of the Church and of sound Biblical interpretation. Furthermore, the view is not known as annihilationism. That is a seperate view that believes judgment resuults in the ultimate ending of the corporal and incorporal existence of unsaved persons. We believe in everlasting conscious corporal punishment for all who reject the gospel of Christ.
Don: By "checked at the door," I mean that these sins will be "burned away" -- by any who haven't already accepted Christ -- in your lake of fire.
Regarding the lake of fire and brimstone, an excerpt from The Online Home of Glad Tidings Chapel:
"People are not going to be saved, but transformed into His image in the Lake of Fire. By that I mean that it is the fire that purifies and refines His image in you as you walk with Him. For the overwhelming majority of people, the 'foreordained conformation to the image of His Son' will take place in the Lake of Fire. The world has been forgiven. The world has been reconciled. As for now, it has been given the choice of whether to go through the fire on this side of the veil of death, or on the other. But make no mistake; all of creation will go through the Lake of Fire. There is no escape. But it is not an act of Divine Retribution, or of Him 'getting even' with humanity for all the sins they have committed. It is an act of His mercy. It is an exhibition of His Love for all creation. It is an example of the extremes He will go to redeem His lost creation.
Let me address a few misconceptions about the Lake of Fire.
1) The Lake of Fire is commonly described as a place of darkness.
How can you have a fire and not have light? Take darkness out of the picture here, please. You can go to the deepest, darkest part of a cave, where no light exists; where the native creatures have no eyes; where you can’t see your hand in front of your eyes, and there light a match. What happens to the darkness? It disappears. The cave around you is flooded with light. The Lake of Fire is not a place of darkness.
2) The Lake of Fire is described as a place of separation from God.
For that to be true, we have to do away with Rev. 14:10b where it says: '…and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb…'
You can’t be separated from Someone, and still be tormented in His presence. It just doesn’t happen that way.
So far in the Lake of Fire, we have light, and the presence of the Lamb. Almost sounds like the kind of place I want to be. Let’s continue…
3) The Lake of Fire is commonly thought of as occupying Eternity, or that one will be there for eternity. The Lake of Fire has to be relegated to time and it can’t have much in common with eternity if there is going to be the continuous passage of night and day there. Compare Rev. 14:11, '…and they have no rest day or night…' Either we believe the scriptures, or we make excuses for the fact that we don't.
Suddenly, when you scrutinize the factual details surrounding the Lake of Fire, we begin to see a different picture than what we have been taught all our lives to see. It is a place of Great Light. It is a place where those who go there will be immersed in, bathed in and surrounded by and cleansed in His Glorious Presence. And as I am about to show you, that cleansing will be for the purpose of forming His image in the one being cleansed.
So, let’s take the time to strip away all the stuff that doesn’t belong, and take a closer look at this fire and brimstone. Doing so will dispel the fear, take away the superstition, and hopefully reveal a dimension of the love of God that isn’t clearly visible anywhere else. Nowhere have I seen the love of the Father so clearly than when I began to see the Lake of Fire for what it really is."
From the founder of the Pittsburg Bible Institute:
“The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' (emphasis mine) Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it.”
Charles Pridgeon; Is Hell Eternal, or Will God’s Plan Fail; pgs 116 & 117.
Don,
Before I open my Bible, I pray for understanding of the Scriptures. I have prayed, specifically, that God change my heart if my belief in Universalism is wrong. I've only become more firmly convicted.
I'm interested in what you mean by the last part of your post. You pray that I'll change my mind about Universalism before it's "too late"? I assume you think I'll heading for everlasting torment, then, despite the fact that I believe Christ is the Son of God and have accepted him as my personal Lord and Savior.
I wonder if you're aware of the many believers and supporters of Christian Universalism throughout history, who -- according to your suggestion -- will suffer damnation:
All the Hebrew Prophets who prophesied of the coming of the Messiah
Jesus Christ (John 12:32)
Paul, the Apostle (never used the word "Hell" once) (1 Tim. 4:9-11)
John the Apostle (John 4:42)
The Didascalia (the Catechetical school of Alexandria)
Pantaenus, first head of catechetical school at Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria, second head of catechetical school at Alexandria
Origen, greatest scholar of the early church
Athenasius, Archbishop of Alexandria
Didymus
Ambrose, Bishop
Ephraim
Chrysostum
Gregory of Nyssa, Bishop
Gregory of Nazianzus, Bishop and President of the second Church council
Titus, Bishop of Bostra
Asterius, Bishop of Amasea
Cyril
Methodius, Bishop of Tyre
Eusibius, early church historian
Hillary, Bishop of Poictiers
Victorinus
Macrina, the younger
Erigena
Dionysius
Barsudaili, Abbott of Edessa
Diodore, Bishop of Tarsus and Jerusalem
Theodore of Mopsuestia
John Cassian
Maximus of Turin
Proclus, Bishop of Constantinoplus
Theodoret the Blessed, Bishop of Cyrrhus
Peter Chrysologus, Bishop of Ravenna
Theophylact, Archbishop of Achrida
Anselm
Hermes Trisgistus
Joachim of Flora
Thomas Hobbes
Francis Quarles
Sir Harry Vane
La Fontaine
Sir Isaac Newton
Daniel Defoe
Joseph Addison
Isaac Watts
Dr. Edward Young
Chevalier Ramsay
William King, Archbishop of Dublin
William Duncombe
Bishop Joseph Butler
John Donne
James Thompson
Dr. Philip Doddridge
Peter Bohler
Dr. David Hartley
Thomas Say
Samuel Johnson
Jean Jacques Rousseau
Frederick the Great
Ferdinand Oliver Petitpiere
Henry Brooke
Mark Akenside
Immanuel Kant
Thomas Gainesborough
William Cowper
James Neckar
Dr. Joseph Priestley
Jung Stilling
John Frederick Oberlin
Alison Rutherford Cockburn
Johann Kasper Lavater
Anna Letitia Barbauld
Dr. John Prior Estlin
Samuel Parr
T. W. Goethe
Thomas Belsham
Rev. Robert Aspland
George Crabbe
Ralph Cudworth
Henry Moore
Erbury
Samuel Richardson
Bishop Rust
Jeremy White
Bishop Stillingfleet
Dr. Burnet, Master of the Charter House
William Whiston
Bishop Newton
William Law
J. Windet
R. Clark
Cooke
J. Relly
Sir George Stonehouse
W. Dudgeon
Capel Berrow
C. Charnay
Elhanan Winchester
John Murry
Ershine of Linlathen
Anne Bronte
Whittier
Robert and Elizabeth Browning
Robert Burns
Johann Schiller
Joanna Baillie
Samuel Rogers
Sir James Mackintosh
Alexander Von Humboldt
Samuel Taylor Coleridge
John Foster
Whitman
Edna Lyall
George MacDonald
Mrs. Oliphant
James Hinton
C. Bronte
Emily Bronte
Gen. Gordon
Miss Mulock
Alexander Pope
William Wordsworth
James Montgomery
Thomas Dick
James Hogg
Robert Southey
Fredericka Bremer
Ellice Hopkins
Hesba Stretton
Florence Nightingale
F. Schlegel
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Bishop Ewing of Argyll
Canon Kingsley
John F.D. Maurice
Dr. Samuel Cox
Baldwin Brown
Bishop Westcott
F. W. Robertson
Sir G. W. Cox
Andrew Jukes
Rev. Lucius R. Paige
Thomas Whittimore
J. H. Hanson
Archer Gurney
Phillips Brooks
Professor Mayor
Canon F. W. Farrar
Principal Caird, the Bishop of Meath
Dean Church
Johann A. W. Neander
Martensen
Friedrich A.G. Tholuck, German Professor
E.A. Thomas Rawson Birks, secretary to Evangelical Alliance
Erik Jakob Ekman, author
Karl Johan Nyvall, author
Peter Paul Waldenstrom
Reuss
Spener
Kristofer Jakob Bostrom, prof. of Philosophy, University of Uppsala
Johna Wilhelm Personne, Swedish Lutheran Bishop, author
Nils Ignell, pastor, author
Rev. Dr. Littledale
Rev. H. B. Wilson
Bishop Forbes of Brechin
Bishop Moorhouse of Melbourne
Dean Stanley
Rev. Prof. Challis
Archdeacon Reichel D. D.
Rev. Prof. J. B. Mayor
A.J. Beresford-Hope
Rev. T. Griffith, Prebendary of St. Paul's
Archbishop Tillotson
Richard Coppin
Gerard Winstanley
R. Stafford
Bishop Stillingfleet
Rev. Dr. Thomas Burnet
Dr. Doddridge
Archdeacon Paley
Rev. Dr. Hey, Prof. of Divinity
Dr. Cheyne
Rev. Presbendary Constable, M.A.
Rev. R. W. Dale
Rev. Edward White
Rev. Henry Allon D. D.
M. Guillaume Monad
Nathaniel Scarlett
Paul Chatfield
Helen Maria Williams
F. W. Faber
Charles Lamb
Mrs. Mary M. Sherwood
F. W. T. Schelling
Sarah Flower Adams
Walter Savage Landor
Henry Crabb Robinson
Thomas Campbell
Horace Smith
William Ellery Channing
Rev. L. Carpenter L.L.D.
F. De La Mennais
Washington Irving
Bernard Barton
Leigh Hunt
Thomas De Quincey
John Pierpont
John Wilson
Prof. Espy
Dr. T. Southwood Smith
Lord Byron
Lady Byron
H. H. Milman
Percy B. Shelley
Felicia Dorothea Hemans
William Cullen Bryant
William Whewell
J. G. Percival
Horace Mann
Hartley Coleridge
T. C. Lockhart
Gerritt Smith
Theophilus Parsons
Thomas Hood
McDonald Clarke
Dr. F Hase, professor of theology
Chauncey Townsend
Frederika Bremer
Johann Peter Lange
Dr. C. F. Kling
Lydia Maria Child
William Leggell
Thomas Guthrie
Bishop Ewing
George Sand
Nathaniel Hawthorne
Mary Bowitt
T. P. Nichol L.L.D.
James Marlineau
Hans Christian Andersen
John Stuart Mill
Rev. J. C. Street
Rev. T. Latham
Emile Giradin
Elizabeth Oakes Smith
N. T. Willis
John Sterling
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
John Greenleaf Whittier
Rev. L. C. Marvin
Abel C. Thomas
Christian Edward Baumstark
Caroline E. S. Norton
John R. Thompson
Ross Winans
Oliver Wendell Holmes
Alfred Tennyson
Richard Milnes
Prof. J. S. Blackie
John R. Beard D.D.
Edward Clodd
Mary Carpenter
Theodore Parker
Margaret Fuller Ossoli
J. S. Taylor
George Moore
Martin Tupper
Charles Sumner
Horace Greeley
W. M. Thackery
J. H. Scholten
Harriet Beecher Stowe
Norman MacLeod D.D.
Charles Mackay
Charles Dickens
Lewis Carroll
Henry Ward Beecher
J. Ross Browne
Sylvester Judd
Rev. C. A. Bartol
Rev. Fergus Ferguson
Caroline M. Sawyer
Daniel Schenkel
Franz Delitsch
Johann Tauler
Jean De Ruysbroek
Johann Arndt
Sonner
Denk
Hetzer
Johann Wilhelm Petersen
Matthew Reuz
Johan Conrad (Christian) Dippel
John Henry Haug, Prof. at Strasburg
Dr. Ernest Christoph Hockman
Count De Marcy
Francesco Giorgi
Postel
Curione
David Joris
Campanella
George Klein-Nikolai, author
Anna Letitia Barbauld, English poet and writer
Sarah Flowers Adams, hymnist
Elisabeth Arundel Charles, hymnist, writer
Elisabeth C. Clephane, hymnist
Eliza Scudder
Alison Rutherford Cockburn, writer
Joanna Beitte, author
Mary M. Sherwood, writer
Lydia Child, writer
Caroline Norton, writer
Mary Carpenter, English philanthropist
Margaret Fuller Ossoli, writer
Caroline Sawyer, writer
Sarah G. Edgarton Mayo, writer
Francis Power Cobbe, author
Lucy Larcom, writer
Dinah Muloch Craik
Mrs. Bloomfield, writer
Mrs. E.H.J. Cleveland
Helen L. Bostwick
Julia H. Scott, writer
Fredrika Bremer, Swedish novelist
Woelner
Seebach
Steinbart
Rev. Alexander Schweizer
Rev. John Page Hoppe
Rev. G. Vance Smith D.D. Ph. D.
Bishop Colenso
Jules Francois Suisse Simon, French Statesman
George Dawson
Charles Reade
John Cooper Vail
Philip James Bailey
James Gaylord Clark
John Sare
J. A. Fronde
Acton Warburton
James Russel Lowell
Dr. R. A. Lipsins, Prof. of Theology
John Ruskin
Arther Hugh Clough
Walt Whitman
Louis Figuier, French Scientist
Charles Kingsley
J. C. Holland
Sarah G. Edgarton Mayo
Prof. E. H. Plumptre
William Howard Russell
W. R. Greg
Stopford A. Brooke, chaplain to the Queen
G. Campbell
Leopold Scheffer
Matthew Arnold
Frances Power Cobbe
J. H. Duganne
T. W. Higginson
Thomas L. Harris
George Rust
Rev. John Wallace
Mrs. A. D. T. Whitney
S. Baring Gould
Lucy Larcom
Thomas Griffith
Adelaide A. Procter
Bayard Taylor
Dinah Mulock Graik
Elizabeth Arundel Charles
Henry James
S. A. Tipple
Quillen H. Shinn, evangelist
John Brown, M. D.
Mrs. Bloomfield
Eliza Scudder
Charles G. Ames
Joseph John Murphy
James Hinton
Mrs. E. H. J. Cleaveland
Gerald Massey
Theodore Winthrop
Alexander Smith
Albert Laighton
Jean Jugelow
Edwin Arnold
Robert Bulwer Lytton
William Morris
Rev. John Orr, Prof. Biblical Criticism
J. B. Munroe
N. C. Wilkins
Bret Harte
Rev. William Archer Butler
Elizabeth C. Clephane
Rev. Albert Reville D. D.
Dr. S. Fillmore Bennett
Robert Ingersoll
William Wallace
John Hay
Helen Bostwick
Robert Buchaman
Hattie Griswold
Sharon Turner
Seba Smith
Julia H. Kinney Scott
Joaquin Miller
Principle Caird
The Cary Sisters
M. B. Smedley
Paul Janet
Rev. John Monsell L.L.D.
Thomas Aird
Ronald Cower
J. Fenimore Cooper
Victor Hugo
Appleton Oaksith
Sir James Stephen
Thomas Carlyle
Allan Cunningham
John Young L.L.D
Thomas Erskine of Lintathen
Schleiermacher
Bengel
Eberhard
Lavater
J Macleod Campbell, Dean of Wells
Canon Wilberforce
Pastor Oberlin
Bishop Ken
Thomas Allin
Hannah Whitall Smith, Evangelist and Bible teacher
Clara Barton
Christopher Sauer (Sower, Saur), Bible Publisher
Charles Chauncy
Dr. Benjamin Rush, signer of the Declaration of Independence
William Sargent
Hosea Ballou
Christopher Marshall
George de Benneville
Marie Huber
Jane Leade
Philipp Jakob Spener
Johanna Eleonora von und zu Merlau
Abraham Lincoln
Benjamin Franklin, encouraged the first Universalist Church in Philadelphia
George Washington, defended a Universalist chaplain in his army when attacked by "Orthodox" ministers
Joseph S. Johnston, writer
Rev. Charles A. Pridgeon, President Pittsburgh Bible Institute
Rev. E. L. Clementson, theologian
John A. T. Robinson, theologian
Jacques Ellul, theologian
William Barclay, theologian and translator
Robert Short, author
A.E. Knoch, Bible student and translator
Dean Hough, pastor, writer, editor
J. Preston Eby, writer
Ray Prinzing, writer
A.E. Saxby, author
Warren Young Kimball, author
Adlai Loudy, author
John H. Paton, author
Guy Marks, author
Vladimir Gelesnoff, author
Dr. Ernest L. Martin, author
Morton Kelsey, author
Ruth Carter Stapleton, Billy Carter's sister
Walter Kunneth
Paul Althaus, theologian
Nels Ferre, theologian
Herbert Farmer, theologian
Nicolai Berdyaev, theologian
Hendrikus Berkof, theologian
H. Dodd, theologian
H. H. Farmer, theologian
Vernard Eller, professor
P. T. Forsythe, theologian
Karl Heim, theologian
John Hick, theologian
F. D. Moule, professor
T. Niles, church leader
Mathias Rissi, theologian
Ethelbert Stauffer, theologian
Thomas Talbott, Professor
David L. Watson, professor
Karl Barth, theologian
Madelein L Engle, author
Tom Harpur, journalist
Richard John Neuhaus
Carlton Pearson, bishop, pastor, author, singer
Robert Rutherford, pastor
Dick King, pastor
Rhett Ellis, author
Kalen Fristadt, author
Mark T. Chamberlain, author
Brian McLaren, author
Jeff Priddy, author
Harold Lovelace, author, speaker
Keith DeRose, Yale Professor
Gary Amirault, author, internet host
"I assume you think I'll heading for everlasting torment, then, despite the fact that I believe Christ is the Son of God and have accepted him as my personal Lord and Savior."
It doesn't really matter if you do or don't, does it?
There is way too much wrong thinking going on my universalist friend.
I am praying God would open your eyes to a wrath He has for sinners. His wrath is a holy white hot wrath, which you and I need to fear; We need to fear God, who will throw both our bodies and souls into hell fire, if we don't repent and trust in the Cross of Christ.
Can one believe the fasle teaching you are teaching and still be a Christian?
I don't know your heart Anon, but this is a heresy which God hates for sure.
It makes His Son, Jesus Christ out to be a liar, and we need not take serious His words.
That's scary to me.
And yet if you are born again, then the doctrine of hell, God's wrath, and judgment, though they are deep teachings which to study, there is the clarity of God's wrath has either been paid for by Christ for you, and He has brought you to faith and repentance, or His wrath is being stored up for you, because you are not a genuine believer.
"He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36
Ihope you are a believer Anon, and pray God would open your eyes to the false teaching you have eaten.
Don, It very much matters that I believe in and accept Christ. I'm surprised you would ask such a thing. It's the joy of my life.
I'm sympathetic to you, because I understand the passion with which you cling to those verses that seem to support your "Eternal Torment" view. (Thanks to MSC for correctly distinguishing this view from the Annihilationist view, which different verses seem to support.) I'm sympathetic, because I cling with equal passion to those verses that seem to support my Universalist view.
In the spirit of good will, I'm posting a quick reference link (http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/fate.html) that accounts for what each of us believes.
Christians in the twentieth century have primarily three views of the fate of the wicked:
The Majority View: Eternal Torment
The Minority View: Annihilation, or Eternal Death
The Remnant View: Eventual Salvation Through Jesus Christ
The eternal torment view has been the majority view for about the last fifteen hundred years. The main Scriptures used to support that view are:
Matthew 25:31-46
Mark 9:38-48
Luke 16:19-31
Matthew 12:24-36
John 3:35-36
Revelation 19:19-21
Revelation 20:7-10
Revelation 20:11-15
The annihilation view has been the minority view since the beginning of church writings after the disappearance of the apostles. Some of the most ancient of the Christian writings taught this view. The Scriptures used to support this view are:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
1 Thessalonians 5:3
1 timothy 6:9
1 Corinthians 5:5
2 Thessalonians 2:8-12
Jeremiah 51:39,57
Jeremiah 18:13-17
Jeremiah 25:8-11
Malachi 4:1-3
Obadiah 1:15-16
Matthew 10:28
Revelation 20:11-15
This may come as a shock to most Christians today, but what is today the remnant view was the majority view for the first five hundred years of Christianity. As a matter of fact, of the six theological schools we know existed in the second to fourth century, four of them believed in the salvation of all mankind, only one taught annihilation, and only one taught eternal torment, the school at Rome. For a brief history of how this reversal of doctrines came about, write for the article, The Early Christian's View of Salvation. The doctrine of eternal torment did not become popular until the fifth century when Augustine began to push it. Once the doctrine was firmly injected into the church, the church brought about the Dark Ages, which lasted about a thousand years.
Most Christians, when they are told their doctrines do not agree with the views of the early Christians, do not believe it. They are so certain that the Bible does not contradict itself and that their beliefs are based upon the Bible. Those who are in the majority and minority views often have those Scriptures that support their position memorized. Evangelists always use them at revival time to scare people into their church.
Following is a list of Scriptures that early Christians used to support their view that all mankind will be saved. Do they contradict the beliefs that you presently hold? If they do, does the Bible contradict itself? And if it doesn't, is it possible that the present church majority is wrong?
1 Timothy 2:4 God will have all to be saved
1 Timothy 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time
Ephesians 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will
John 12:47 Jesus came to save all
John 4:42 Jesus is the Savior of the world
1 John 4:14 Jesus is the Savior of the world
John 12:32 Jesus draws all to Himself
Hebrews 7:25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost
Colossians 1:15 Jesus is the firstborn of all creation
Colossians 1:16 By Him all things were created
Romans 5:15-21 In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live
1 Corinthians 15:22 In Adam all die, in Christ all live
Ephesians 1:10 All come into Him at the fullness of times
1 Corinthians 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be destroyed
Philippians 2:9-11 Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord
1 Corinthians 12:3 Cannot confess except by the Holy Spirit
Romans 11:26 All Israel will be saved
Acts 3:20-21 Restitution of all
Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to all people
Ephesians 2:7 His grace shown in the ages to come
Hebrews 8:11-12 All will know God
Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to all
Romans 8:19-21 Creation set at liberty
Colossians 1:20 All reconciled unto God
1 Corinthians 4:5 All will have praise of God
James 5:11 End of the Lord is full of mercy
Revelation 15:4 All nations worship when judgments are seen
II Corinthians 5:17 New creation in Christ
Romans 11:32 All subject to unbelief, mercy on all
Romans 11:36 All out of God, through Him, and into Him
Ephesians 4:10 Jesus will fill all things
Revelation 5:13 All creation seen praising God
1 Corinthians 15:28 God will be all in all
Revelation 21:4-5 No more tears, all things made new
John 5:25 All dead who hear will live
John 5:28 All in the grave will hear and come forth
1 Corinthians 3:15 All saved, so as by fire
Mark 9:49 Everyone shall be salted with fire
Romans 11:15 Reconciliation of the world
II Corinthians 5:15 Jesus died for all
John 8:29 He always does what pleases His Father
Hebrews 1:2 He is heir of all things
John 3:35 All has been given into His hand
John 17:2 Jesus will give eternal life to all whom His Father gives to Him
John 13:3 The Father gave Him all things
I Timothy 4:9-11 Jesus is the Savior of all
Isaiah 46:10 God will do all His pleasure
Daniel 4:35 God's will done in heaven and earth
Proverbs 16:9 Man devises, God directs his steps
Proverbs 19:21 Man devises, but God's counsel stands
Psalms 33:15 God fashions all hearts
Deuteronomy 32:39 God kills and makes alive
Psalms 90:3 God turns man to destruction then says "return"
Lamentations 3:31,32God will not cast off forever
Isaiah 2:2 All nations shall flow to the Lord's house
Genesis 18:18 All families of earth will be blessed
Isaiah 45:23 All descendants of Israel justified
Psalms 138:4 All kings will praise God
Psalms 72:18 God only does wondrous things
Psalms 86:9 All nations will worship God
Psalms 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God
Psalms 66:3-4 Enemies will submit to God
Isaiah 19:14-25 Egypt and Assyria will be restored
Ezekiel 16:55 Sodom will be restored
Psalms 22:25-29 All will turn to the Lord and all families will worship before Him
Psalms 145:9-10 He is goo to all and merciful to all His work
Psalms 145:14 God raises all who fall
Psalms 145:16 God satisfied the desire of the living
Psalms 145:10 All God's will praise Him
Isaiah 25:6 Lord makes feast for all people
Isaiah 25:7 Will destroy veil that is spread over all nations
Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory
Jeremiah 32:35 Never entered His mind to burn people in fire
Psalms 135:6 God does what pleases Him
What Pleases God?
1 Timothy 2:3-6 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ("will have" in some translations) all me to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men the Man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time..."
I John 4:14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
John 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hands.
John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent me, that of all He has given me, I should lose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.
"John 5:25 All dead who hear will live
John 5:28 All in the grave will hear and come forth"
Here you have used the Holy Scriptures wrongly. Jesus is talking about eternal life, and judgment.
You need to study what judgment means, because God's wrath will be poured out in judgment on the wicked.
God has brought you to Jonathan's blog, and all you need do is listen to Jonathan, and MSC, who is a pastor as well.
May the Lord open your heart.
"“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to execute JUDGMENT, because he is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of JUDGMENT."
Maybe God led me to Jonathan's blog to share the joy of universal salvation.
Don't think that I don't believe in God's judgment (bold font noted), wrath, and punishment though. I do! Just because I think Christ intercedes and will eventually gather all men to Himself doesn't mean that I don't think the judgment and the punishment that precedes this won't be a terrible ordeal for many. I think it will be, quite literally, Hell.
I believe much of what you do, Don. The only difference is that I have the hope that those who suffer retribution will after an age (or many ages) be reconciled to God, and that He will be "all in all."
Anon, now you are in the dangerous position of destroying the meaning of the atonement of Jesus Christ. If He really did take away the sins of the world (cf. 1 John 1:9 for the totality of this forgiveness), as you have previously suggested, then why is there a purging process after death? Why did Jesus die on the Cross?
PS- since you are a fan of Origen, do you also believe that Satan will be saved in the future?
Jonathan,
Jesus's death on the cross is absolutely necessary! -- though you're right that some Universalists may -- inadvertently or not -- make it not seem so:
"Some Universalists fail to understand that repentance and faith are essential for a person to be saved, whether in this life . . . or for the rest of humanity in future ages. They fail to understand the difference between God given saving faith and human self-righteous faith. They do not understand that on the Day of Judgement, all unbelievers will repent and through God given faith believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, before they can be saved and reconciled to God. Being purified in the lake of fire will not get them to Heaven without this faith in Jesus. His death for us on the cross is what makes all possible."
As for Satan, I've read different things. I certainly don't think anything is beyond God's restorative power. The view perhaps more popular, though, is this one:
"In Matt. 25:41 Jesus spoke of 'the aionian fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.' I believe that men are purified or purged in the fire, because God is a consuming fire. The fire consumes 'the flesh,' leaving only what is good. As for the devil and his angels, God is also a consuming fire to them. The question is whether there is anything good in the devil that is NOT consumed and which may remain in the end. I do not believe there is, and hence, it is my belief that the devil and his angels will be utterly consumed by God.
To consume is to eat or assimilate. God can 'eat' in this sense without violating His character. For this reason, God told the disciples that if they drank any poison, it would not hurt them, and if a serpent bit them, it would do them no harm (Mark 16:18). Where did this ability come from? Obviously, from God Himself, because as a consuming fire, He too is able to consume 'the flesh' along with Satan and his angels without violating His sanctity. All vice will simply be assimilated by the all-consuming fire of God."
Sorry for the loose quotations, but I haven't the time to explain all of this in my own words, so I've pieced together the research (from both the Bible and religious writings) that has most influenced my thought.
Thanks for the audio. Funny thing. I'm listening to Christmas music on our local Christian radio station as I type, and a more beautiful version of "O Holy Night" just started playing. :)
Anon, the reason I quoted the passages from my previous comment was to show that Jesus' atonement, according to the Bible, covered ALL sin. It removed all sin. Ergo, there is no sin to be purged after death. Either the atonement covers all sin or it doesn't. If it does, your notion of a purging fire is unfounded. If it doesn't, you are relegated to a works based religion where Jesus' sacrifice is not enough to get one to heaven.
PS- glad you liked the funny bit
Sorry, I didn't notice that I commented under my beloved's name ;-)
-Jonathan
Of course the atonement covers all sin. As a Christian (one who has accepted Christ), my sins are forgiven. Yet this does not mean that I am perfect and will not sin again today (I've been on my best behavior but am sure I have sinned without even realizing it!)
At the end of the age, however, we will be transformed in Christ's image: not only forgiven but stripped of the ability to sin. We couldn't sit in God's presence with the falliable human natures we have now. So two things have to happen: (1) we must accept Christ (b/c this is the only way to be forgiven of our sins) and (2) we must be transformed in/by Christ (b/c this is the only way to enter God's presence). Christ's death on the cross takes care of #1. The fire of transformation takes care of #2.
Perhaps the lake of fire is a necessary place for unbelievers to be able to experience Christ, who is a fire Himself. Rev. 14:10 tells us explicitly that those in the fire will be in Christ's presence.
Because Christ died on the cross, we're saved. As Christians, you and I are already "on fire" with and for Christ. It seems that those who aren't, though, may have that opportunity at the Judgment, by being submerged in the lake of fire.
So now the lake of fire is Christ and is in heaven? And you equate being “on fire” for the Lord with the lake of fire? The lengths of your cognitive dissonance is staggering, and grievous. A few observations:
(1) Your explanation of Matthew 25 is severely lacking because in one verse there is a direct juxtaposition of eternal life with eternal punishment. To say “It just doesn’t make sense for God to punish infinitely” is not an answer. There are very good reasons why God should and will punish infinitely, namely for His own glory. To say that this is eternal “correction” concedes that the word aionios does indeed mean “eternity,” but ignores the mountain of biblical evidence showing that hell is not intended for correction (see point 2 below).
(2) Hell is indeed a place of torment, torture, and punishment where the fire never goes out.
Matt. 13:42 "...and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt. 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.”
Mark 9:44 "where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED."
(3) As Matthew 25:41 indicates above, the lake of fire is prepared for the devil and his angels, so if the fire is Christ, you must make the devil and the demons a part of this corrective process.
(4) Your understanding of aionios is severely lacking. I suggest that you read more broadly, particularly in Greek dictionaries. Kittel’s TDNT will be particularly helpful. For example, the use of the phrase aionas ton aionon in Revelation 20:10 cannot be explained in any other way that “forever and ever” (i.e. “eternity”) because of the Greek construction (particularly the plural form in conjunction with the emphatic double usage).
Rev 20:10 "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Anon, I can’t help but notice throughout this thread that you are depending on other sources to give you answers for our questions. I hope that this thread will drive you to the Scriptures above all else as the authority for what you believe. Warm regards,
No, my point is that Christ is with those in the lake of fire:
Rev. 14:10: "he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."
As for the difference between the fire we experience as Christians and the lake of fire that the non-believers experience, see my previous post. Don't worry. I don't think it will be pleasant for non-believers. My point is about fire as a refining element.
(1) Believing that God punishes infinitely does not seem consistent with Christ's teachings. Christ tells us to love and forgive our enemies. After the judgment, God will be glorified in ways we can't even imagine -- "every knee will bow" and heavenly choirs will sing. The "glory" he would get from watching people suffer eternally doesn't fit the image of God the Father.
As a father, could your children do anything that would cause you to push them into a fire that will torture them forever? Is God's love less than yours?
(2)I acknowledged in a previous post the Scripture that seems to support your point about Hell. There is also Scripture that contradicts you point, though, and supports mine. (See previous post). There are contradictions in the Bible. The reason for this, I believe, is to teach us that it is not only Scripture we rely on to know God. It is knowing God, and His love, directly.
3)I have no problem with making the devil and his angels part of the corrective process. Nothing is beneath God's restorative ability. What a glory it will be, indeed, if he reforms even the fallen angels.
4)I have read broadly, although I could always read more broadly, of course. I'm not going to fall into the trap of "My Bible translators are better than you or your Bible translators," though. Suffice it to say that I take "eis tous aionas ton aionon" to mean "into the age of the ages."
I depend on other sources and the Scriptures and prayer and my relationship with God. -- although your point is noted, so I was careful to use only my thoughts and Scripture in this post.
This discussion, with which I've been engaged for days, reminds me of Ecclesiates 12:12: "But, my son, be warned: there is no end of opinions ready to be expressed. Studying them can go on forever and become very exhausting!" :)
One last thought: Any person with an ounce of humility will consider the possibility that they may be wrong about a given belief. No one is infallible. But if I am wrong, I would rather err on the side of mercy than wrath. I would rather be guilty of making God too loving than too condemning.
All best.
"One last thought: Any person with an ounce of humility will consider the possibility that they may be wrong about a given belief."
I'm unwilling to do that. I hope, even if threatened to be tortured, and even killed, I would never consider my faith in Christ and His clear truth as wrong.
God will be glorified in His righteous judgment, when He throws both the bodies and souls of the wicked unbelievers in to hell.
That's why Jesus said we'd be better to pluck out our eye if it causes us to sin, and enter into eternal life with one eye, than have both eyes and be cast into hell.
In Fact Christ told Judas that for wht he was doing he would have been better off never being born. NEVER BEING BORN. There's a scary word from our Lord.
Oh, Don. I didn't mean wrong about Christ. I meant wrong about "eternal torment" vs. "universal salvation." Sigh.
Christ's words support both. And I would never assume that I perfectly understand all of His words and what He means by them, anyway. If I did, I would be Christ. I think I have a good understanding, though, thanks to the Holy Spirit.
As for what Christ said to Judas, I'm sure it was true. People suffer so much pain -- and cause so much pain in this world -- that it would have been better (saved a lot of suffering) for a lot of people to have never been born. That doesn't mean they'll be tortured eternally.
Have you plucked out either of your eyes, Don? Surely they've caused you to sin, no?
"Have you plucked out either of your eyes, Don? Surely they've caused you to sin, no?"
I believe Jesus was serious when He said these words. He also said to cut off your hand, and your leg as well.
I'll tell you this much, if cutting my eye out, as painful as that would be, would keep me from being condemned to hell, then I would be well warned to do so.
Jesus was showing us how serious it is to miss eternal life, and how wonderful eternal life is, if we had only one limb, or eye.
Serious words, that most people like you Anon, take way too lightly.
Judas would have been better off never being born, because he was the son of perdition.
But your saying that perhaps someone who suffers greatly in life would be better off never being born, although they shall enjoy eternal life in the presence of Christ after their suffering.
That makes no sense at all.
Anon. said:
"There are contradictions in the Bible. The reason for this, I believe, is to teach us that it is not only Scripture we rely on to know God. It is knowing God, and His love, directly."
This may be the most revealing statement in your arguments. I fear this statemnet betrays the desire to hold to a sentimental view of God and salvation that it born more out of personal desire than serious study of Scripture. If you believe scripture contradicts itself then you must believe that it is not divine. Otherwise you must assert that God contradicts himself which is another way of saying that God lies.
But let us for the sake of argument accept your proposition that Scripture contradicts itself. Under the present topic that would imply that some scriptures teach universalism while others teach eternal judgment for unbelievers. Since the notion of contradiction indicates that you believe that 1 or the other of the conflicting propositions of scripture are false how do you know which ones? What if the texts you believe taught universalism are wrong and the eternal judgment passages are correct? On what basis would you know for certain? What authroity would you appeal to in order to determine the truth one set of propositions and the error of the others? Is this part of your "knowing God... directly" notion? Has God audibly spoken to you and told you the truth of the matter? Is it a gut feeling that you attribute to God?
Anon. I fear you have tread into waters far too deep and you should be encouraged to get back to the shore and move in a different direction, preferably upon the full authority and veracity of Scripture.
Don,
I take Jesus's words very seriously when he says, in John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." I take Paul seriously when he says, in I Cor. 15, "all will be made alive in Christ."
Too bad that many ignore these words, even though they're among the most beautiful in the Bible.
I still wonder if you think that Jesus was exaggerating when he said to "pluck out an eye." If you don't think so, then I don't understand why more people aren't doing this. With what you believe about Hell, if Jesus says you'd have a better chance of escaping it if you remove the offending body parts (the tongue, as James said, is certainly one), then why wouldn't you?
MCG,
I believe the Scripture is divinely inspired, but written by men all the same, and often interpreted by men rather than the Holy Spirit. Man's interpretation, as you know, can be dangerous. Think of Hitler, the KKK, etc. and their use of Scripture to justify atrocities.
There are many contradictions in the Bible. Read about King David and the census. One part of the Bible says that God lead him to take the census; another part says Satan lead him to take the census. Type in "Biblical contradictions" in a google search, and you'll even find some rather humorous ones.
That doesn't belittle the power of the Word or make me love it any less, of course. It just makes me rely equally on the Holy Spirit for interpretation. This is a well-written articulation of what I believe about eternal torment vs. universal salvation:
"The Holy Spirit-illumined conscience is the truest witness of the Holy Spirit. Any doctrine born of God will commend itself to the Christian’s conscience. Though many say they believe this doctrine to be true, they very seldom, if ever, preach it, and if they do they will say, 'I wish it were not really true' or 'If I could change it, I would.' These or similar statements only reveal the voice of their consciences, which do not find an Amen! To the doctrine of 'eternal punishment.' you, the reader, test this statement: Say out loud: 'Every person who has not believed on Jesus Christ while living in this mortal body on this earth deserves to be eternally punished.' What is the witness of your conscience?"
"Too bad that many ignore these words, even though they're among the most beautiful in the Bible."
I don't ignore them. I actually love them very much. As I love all of God's Scripture. His word is pure and simple, and a light to our path, and a lamp unto my feet.
Jesus said we shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Amen.
Anon, in addition to your dependence on others, you also have an unhealthy dependence upon how you think God should act. In other words, you are imposing a flawed, human sentimentality on God while underestimating the vile nature of sin. For example, your father/son punishment analogy breaks down when you consider such OT texts as God commanding the slaughter of pagan children.
In the meantime, Scripture is still not your authority. You establish this when you say that there are errors in the Bible. By your reason you choose what you like and dislike in the Bible. You accept what you like and discount what you don't like. The result is that you make a god out of your own mind. This destroys the humility you talk about.
In the end, let us pray together for humility and that the Lord would teach us through His Word. Blessings.
Anon, you are willing to give God the benefit of the doubt when it comes to believing something contrary to what a common-sense reading of the text shows on hell, but yet you don’t give God the benefit of the doubt when it comes to believing something consistent with a common-sense reading of the text, namely, that the Bible is God-breathed down to every jot and tittle (Matt 5:18; 2 Tim 3:16).
Perhaps your preconceived notion of God is threatened if you believe otherwise? There are very good, convincing answers to these supposed “contradictions.” But, once again, you simple accept the word of critics rather than doing research on your own.
Anon.
I don't believe you have answered the heart of my question about your belief that the Scriptures contradict themselves. Am I to assume that you believe the Holy Spirit has revealed to you that the passages that you say teach universalism are true and that the contradictory passages are false? Did the Holy Spirit reveal to you that He made a mistake in inspiring these false passages? I am wondering in your view what explanation God has for making these mistakes?
First of all, I work as a researcher. Seriously, it's what I get paid to do. So, yes, I use both primary (Scripture) and secondary sources. That's what researchers do.
Secondly, every Christian -- whether they admit to it or not -- make choices about what to take literally and figuratively in the Bible. The OT says "no work on the Sabbath." Jesus says, "Well, if the ox is in the ditch . . ." The OT says an eye for an eye"; Jesus says "No, not an eye for an eye; turn the other cheek." Since both are in the Bible, which do you choose? -- b/c you have to choose one or the other.
Do you stone those who work on the Sabbath? The OT says we should. How, then, do you justify not doing that? Are you careful to avoid women during their menstral cycle? According to the Bible, you should be!
So, what's so different about the choices that you make?
The reason Christianity is so great is that it's not -- at least it shouldn't be -- like a cult where you check your brain at the door.
Another important point: you all seem to be equating literalness with truth. You don't have to believe something is literal to understand the truth being revealed. Think of Christ's primary method of instruction. Parables! These were not meant to be taken literally, although they certainly revealed important truths. I don't think that God and Satan literally made a bet -- gambled! -- over what Job would do! But the truth of the Book of Job -- that bad things happen to good people; that as humans, we can't expect to completely understand God -- is truth for sure!
And, yes, I realize that I've opened a whole new can of worms . . .
Anon, you have avoided all of our questions. As for your discussion on the OT and NT, this is a very basic theological issue. I suggest reading "Continuity and Discontinuity: Perspectives on the Relationship Between the Old and New Testaments" (http://www.amazon.com/Continuity-Discontinuity-Perspectives-Relationship-Testaments/dp/0891074686/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228269851&sr=8-1). You create a false either/or dilemma that is not necessary.
I look forward to your response to our previous questions on inerrancy.
I'm not the only one avoiding questions here. -- although my omission is b/c I don't get the impression that you're actually asking me anything! For example, your first response to my last post had zero question marks in it. Rather, you made assumptions about me, judgments about my beliefs, and offered a pray that is already, in fact, one I pray myself.
I'd be happy to answer any and all questions (as long as time permits) if you'd kindly make them explicit, and try to limit them to one or two at a time.
Anon, in MSC's two previous comments he asked you some pointed questions that you have ignored. How about starting there? Those questions sum up many of my questions as well.
Oh, I thought I answered those points. -- the whole literalness vs. truth thing.
I guess the simplest answer is that I recognize the contradictions in the Bible without thinking of them as "mistakes."
The Bible is both the divinely inspired Word of God and a historical/cultural record of the Jewish people. And, yes, I think the Holy Spirit helps us to differentiate between historical record and commandments, the Bible as history book and as manual. And I assume you do as well, or you would ask every woman you see whether or not she's on her menstrual cycle before you touch her.
Take, for example, something you mentioned in your previous posts: the parts in the OT in which God commands the slaughter of pagan children. This is a true historical account of what the Jewish people did. Throughout history, groups have waged wars and genocide in God's name. Important for us to read about and know.
But, what I believe the Holy Spirit leads us to ask ourselves: Would God really command the slaughter of children, pagan or otherwise? Christ said we can't enter Heaven unless we're like a child. Ask a child, still imbued with that wonderful child-like faith, if God would command this. No.
But is this then a "mistake" in the Bible. No. It's a historical record that teaches us something important, I think.
The image of God I get from you Jonathan, is one with many hats. He puts on the God is Judge hat or the God is Father hat according to his whim, and one is always in direct contradiction to the other.
My image of God is based on what Christ says is the greatest commandment: love. The "hat" that God wears without fail is God the Father. Is judgment involved? Sure. As parents, we judge our children. Is punishment involved? Sure. As parents, we punish. But ever present in our judgments and our punishment is our love.
Anon, you have a fundamental misunderstanding about the relationship between the OT and the NT. Again, I strongly recommend reading the book I recommended above on continuity and discontinuity.
Anon.
Your comments are getting more evasive and confused as you go along. I think you are defining the word "contradiction" to suit your evasive answers to my earlier questions. To say that God's love and judgment contradict one another is to say that are incompatible. A contradictary notion is one that denies the truth of an opposite notion. Thus in your scheme, to say that God loves at one moment is to say He acts in a way that denies the truth of his acting in judgment on another ocassion. You are making God to be as confused and contradictory as you seem to be at the moment.
God cannot deny Himself (2 Tim. 2:13). His justice in the eternal judgment of many is fully compatible in the display of his grace to others. The reason why is simple. God's justice, as has been noted already, is not abrogated in the display of His grace. That justice was meted out in the horrific judgment of His Son as the sinner's substitute. This is why we can read that it pleased God to crush His beloved Son in Isaiah's remarkable prophecy of Christ's atoning sacrifice (Isa. 53:10). The death of Christ was the most severe display of God's judgment in history and at the same time His greatest display of love in the justification of those who place their faith in Christ. To be sure these are paradoxical, but they are not contradictory for the reasons I have stated.
Braveheart was a universalist?
OK, Jonathan: I'll stay completely away from contradictions between the OT and NT until after I read your book.
Here are contradictions just in the NT:
1. Jesus' lineage was traced through David's son Solomon. Mt.1:6.
Jesus' lineage was traced through David's son Nathan. Lk.3:31.
2. The announcement of the special birth came before conception. Lk.1:26-31.
The announcement of the special birth came after conception. Mt.1:18-21.
3. Jesus' parents were told of their son's future greatness. Mt.1:18-21; Lk.1:28-35.
Jesus' parents knew nothing of their son's potential. Lk.2:48-50.
4. The angel told Joseph. Mt.1:20.
The angel told Mary. Lk.1:28.
5. There were 28 generations from David to Jesus. Mt.1:17.
There were 43 generations from David to Jesus. Lk.3:23-31.
6. Jacob was Joseph's father. Mt.1:16.
Heli was Joseph's father. Lk.3:23.
7. He was to be called Emmanuel. Mt.1:23.
He was called Jesus. Mt.1:25.
8. Joseph, Mary, and Jesus flee to Egypt while Herod slaughters all males under 2 years old. Mt.2:13-16. (Note: Jesus' cousin, John, was also under 2 and survived without having to flee.)
Joseph, Mary, and Jesus did not flee to Egypt, but remained for temple rituals. No slaughter of infants is mentioned! Lk.2:21-39.
9. Jesus was tempted during the 40 days in the wilderness. Mk.1:13.
Jesus was tempted after the 40 days in the wilderness. Mt.4:2,3.
10. The devil first took Jesus to the pinnacle, then to the mountain top. Mt.4:5-8.
The devil first took Jesus to the mountain top, then to the pinnacle. Lk.4:5-9.
11. Satan tempted Jesus. Mt.4:1-10; Mk.1:13; Lk.4:1,2.
Satan had no interest in Jesus. Jn.14:30.
12. The baptism of Jesus was with the "Holy Ghost". Mk.1:8; Jn.1:33.
Fire was also added to the baptism. Mt.3:11; Lu.3:16.
13. John knew of Jesus before he baptized him. Mt.3:11-13; Jn.1:28,29.
John knew nothing of Jesus at all. Mt.11:1-3.
14. Jesus begins his ministry after John's arrest. Mk.1:13,14.
Jesus begins his ministry before John's arrest. Jn.3:22-24.
15. It is recorded that Jesus saw the spirit descending. Mt.3:16; Mk.1:10.
It is recorded that John saw the spirit descending. Jn.1:32.
16. The heavenly voice addressed the gathering. Mt.3:17.
The heavenly voice addressed Jesus. Mk.1:11; Lk.3:22.
17. Immediately after the baptism, Jesus spent 40 days in the wilderness. Mt.4:1,2; Mk.1:12,13.
Three days after the baptism, Jesus was at the wedding in Cana. Jn.2:1.
18. Jesus went to Bethphage and the Mt. of Olives, then left for Bethany. Mt.21:1,17.
Jesus went to Bethphage and Bethany at the Mt. of Olives. Mk.11:1; Lk.19:29.
Jesus went to Bethany and then Jerusalem. Jn.12:1,12.
19. Jesus and his disciples taught in Capernaum. Mk.1:20,21.
Only Jesus taught in Capernaum. Lk.4:30,31.
20. Peter was chosen, with Andrew, by the Sea of Galilee. Mt.4:18-20; Mk.1:16-18.
Peter was chosen, with James and John, by the lake of Gennesaret. Lk.5:2-11.
Andrew chose Jesus and then got Peter to join. Jn.1:35-42.
21. Peter was to preach to the Jews. Mt.10:2,5,6; Gal.2:7.
Peter was to preach to the Gentiles. Acts 15:7.
22. Jesus cured Simon Peter's mother-in-law after he cleansed the leper. Mt.8:1-15.
Jesus cured Simon Peter's mother-in-law before he cleansed the leper. Mk.1:30-42; Lk.4:38 to 5:13.
23. Peter's mother-in-law was healed before Peter was called to be a disciple. Lu.4:38,39; 5:10.
Peter's mother-in-law was healed after Peter was called to be a disciple. Mt.4:18,19; 8:14,15; Mk.1:16,17,30,31.
24. James and John were with Jesus when he healed Simon Peter's mother-in-law. Mk.1:29-31.
James and John were not with Jesus when he healed Simon Peter's mother-in-law. Lu.4:38,39; 5:10,11.
25. Lebbaeus (Thaddaeus) was the name of an apostle - but no Judas, brother of James. Mt. 10:3.
Judas, the brother of James, was an apostle, but no Thaddaeus. Lk.6:16; Acts 1:13.
26. The centurion's servant was healed in between the cleansing of the leper and the healing of Peter's mother-in-law. Mt.8:2-15.
The centurion's servant was healed after the cleansing of the leper and the healing of Peter's mother-in-law. Lu.4:38,39; 5:12,13; 7:1-10.
27. The people were not impressed with the feeding of the multitude. Mk.6:52.
The people were very impressed with the feeding of the multitude. Jn.6:14.
28. After the feeding of the multitude, Jesus went to Gennesaret. Mk.6:53.
After the feeding of the multitude, Jesus went to Capernaum. Jn.6:14-17.
29. A demon cries out that Jesus is the Holy One of God. Mk.1:23,24.
Everyone who confesses that Jesus came in the flesh is of God. 1 Jn.4:2.
30. Jesus cursed the fig tree so that it would not bear fruit. Mt.21:19; Mk.11:14.
It wasn't time for the fig tree to bear fruit. Mk.11:13.
31. The fig tree withers immediately, and the disciples are amazed. Mt.21:19,20.
The disciples first notice the withered tree the next day. Mk.11:20,21.
32. Jesus is the mediator of the "Father". 1 Tim.2:5; 1 Jn.2:1.
Jesus sits on "his" right hand. Mk. 16:19.
Jesus and the "Father" are one in the same. Jn.10:30.
33. There is one "God". 1 Tim.2:5; Jms.2:19.
There are three. 1 Jn.5:7.
34. Jesus said to honor your father and mother. Mt.15:4; Mt.19:19; Mk.7:10; Mk.10:19; Lk.18:20.
Jesus said that he came to set people against their parents. Mt.10:35-37; Lk.12:51-53; Lk.14:26.
Jesus said to call no man father. Mt.23:9.
35. Jesus/God said, "You fool…". Lk.12:20; Mt.23:17.
Paul calls people fools. 1 Cor.15:36.
Call someone a fool and you go to hell. Mt.5:22.
36. Anger by itself is a sin. Mt.5:22.
But not necessarily. Eph.4:26.
37. Ask and it shall be given. Seek and you will find. Knock and it will be opened to you. Mt.7:7,8; Lk.11:9,10.
Ask and you shall be refused. Seek and you won't find. Knock and you will be refused entrance. Lk.13:24-27.
38. Do not judge. Mt.7:1,2.
Unless it is necessary, of course. 1 Jn.4:1-3.
39. Jesus is thankful that some things are hidden. Mt.11:25; Mk.4:11,12.
Jesus said that all things should be made known. Mk.4:22.
40. Jesus said that no sign would be given. Mk.8:12.
Jesus said that no sign would be given except for that of Jonas. Mt.12:39; Lk.11:29.
Jesus showed many signs. Jn.20:30; Acts 2:22.
41. Jesus stated that the law was until heaven and earth ended. Mt. 5:17-19.
Jesus stated that the law was only until the time of John. Lk.16:16.
42. The "Sermon on the Mount" took place on the mountain. Mt.5:1.
The "Sermon on the Mount" took place on a plain. Lu.6:17.
43. The "Lord's Prayer" was taught to many during the "Sermon on the Mount". Mt.6:9.
The "Lord's Prayer" was taught only to the disciples at another time. Lu.11:1.
44. Jesus had his own house. Mk.2:15.
Jesus did not have his own house. Lu.9:58.
45. Good works should be seen. Mt.5:16.
Good works should not be seen. Mt.6:1-4.
46. Jesus said that Salvation was only for the Jews. Mt.15:24; Mt.10:5,6; Jn.4:22; Rom.11:26,27.
Paul said that salvation was also for the Gentiles. Acts 13:47,48.
47. Repentance is necessary. Acts 3:19; Lu.3:3.
Repentance is not necessary. Rom.11:29.
48. Non-believers obtain mercy. Rom.11:32.
Only believers obtain mercy. Jn.3:36; Rom.14:23.
Only baptized believers obtain mercy. Mk.16:16.
Mercy cannot be predetermined. Rom.9:18.
49. All who call on the "Lord" will be saved. Rom.10:13; Acts 2:21.
Only those predestined will be saved. Acts 13:48; Eph.1:4,5; 2 Thes.2:13; Acts 2:47.
50. Jesus said he would not cast aside any that come to him. Jn.6:37.
Jesus said that many that come to him will be cast aside. Mt.7:21-23.
51. Salvation comes by faith and not works. Eph.2:8,9; Rom.11:6; Gal.2:16; Rom.3:28.
Salvation comes by faith and works. Jms.2:14,17,20.
52. The righteous have eternal life. Mt.25:46.
The righteous are barely saved. 1 Pet.4:18.
There are no righteous. Rom.3:10.
53. Believe and be baptized to be saved. Mk.16:16.
Be baptized by water and the spirit to be saved. Jn.3:5.
Endure to the end to be saved. Mt.24:13.
Call on the name of the "Lord" to be saved. Acts 2:21; Rom.10:13.
Believe in Jesus to be saved. Acts 16:31.
Believe, then all your household will be saved. Acts 16:31.
Hope and you will be saved. Rom.8:24.
Believe in the resurrection to be saved. Rom.10:9.
By grace you are saved. Eph.2:5
By grace and faith you are saved. Eph.2:8.
Have the love of truth to be saved. 2 Thes.2:10.
Mercy saves. Titus 3:5.
54. Backsliders are condemned. 2 Pet.2:20.
Backsliders are saved regardless. Jn.10:27-29.
55. Forgive seventy times seven. Mt.18:22.
Forgiveness is not possible for renewed sin. Heb.6:4-6.
56. Divorce, except for unfaithfulness, is wrong. Mt.5:32.
Divorce for any reason is wrong. Mk.10:11,12.
57. Jesus approved of destroying enemies. Lk.19:27.
Jesus said to love your enemies. Mt.5:44.
58. God resides in heaven. Mt.5:45; Mt.6:9; Mt.7:21.
Angels reside in heaven. Mk.13:32.
Jesus is with God in heaven. Acts 7:55,56
Believers go to heaven. 1 Pet.1:3,4.
Heaven will pass away. Mt.24:35; Mk.13:31; Lk.21:33.
59. Pray that you don't enter temptation. Mt.26:41.
Temptation is a joy. Jms.1:2.
60. God leads you into temptation. Mt.6:13.
God tempts no one. Jms.1:13.
61. Take no thought for tomorrow. God will take care of you. Mt.6:25-34; Lk.12:22-31.
A man who does not provide for his family is worse than an infidel. 1 Tim.5:8.
62. Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Acts 2:21; Rom.10:13.
Not everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Mt.7:21.
Only those whom the Lord chooses will be saved. Acts 2:39.
63. We are justified by works and not by faith. Mt.7:21; Rom.2:6,13; Jms.2:24.
We are justified by faith and not by works. Jn.3:16; Rom.3:27; Eph.2:8,9.; Gal.2:16.
64. Do not take sandals (shoes) or staves. Mt.10:10.
Take only sandals (shoes) and staves. Mk.6:8,9.
65. Jesus said that in him there was peace. Jn.16:33.
Jesus said that he did not come to bring peace. Mt.10:34; Lk.12:51.
66. Jesus said that John the Baptist was a prophet and Elijah. Mt.11:9; Mt.17:12,13.
John said that he was not a prophet nor was he Elijah. Jn.1:21.
67. Jesus said that he was meek and lowly. Mt.11:29.
Jesus makes whips and drives the moneychangers out from the temple. Mt. 21:12; Mk.11:15,16; Jn.2:15.
68. Jesus said, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees". Lk.12:1.
Jesus said, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees". Mt.16:6,11.
Jesus said, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Herod". Mk.8:15.
69. Jesus founds his church on Peter. Mt.16:18.
Jesus calls Peter "Satan" and a hindrance. Mt.16:23.
70. The mother of James and John asks Jesus to favor her sons. Mt.20:20,21.
They ask for themselves. Mk.10:35-37.
71. Jesus responds that this favor is not his to give. Mt.20:23; Mk.10:40.
Jesus said that all authority is given to him. Mt.28:18; Jn.3:35.
72. Jesus heals two unnamed blind men. Mt.20:29,30.
Jesus heals one named blind man. Mk.10:46-52.
73. Jesus healed all that were sick. Mt.8:16; Lk.4:40.
Jesus healed many that were sick - but not all. Mk.1:34.
74. The council asks Jesus if he is the Son of God. Lk.22:70. The high priest asks Jesus if he is the Christ, the Son of God. Mt.26:63.
The high priest asks Jesus if he is the Christ the Son of the Blessed. Mk.14:61.
The high priest asks Jesus about his disciples and his doctrine. Jn.18:19.
75. Jesus answers to the effect of “You said it, not me”. Mt.26:64; Lk.22:70.
Jesus answers definitely, “I am”. Mk.14:62.
76. At the Mount of Olives, Jesus told Peter he would deny him three times. Mt.26:30-34.
At the Passover meal, Jesus told Peter he would deny him three times. Lu.22:13,14,34.
77. Peter was to deny Jesus before the cock crowed. Mt.26:34; Lk.22:34; Jn.13:38.
Peter was to deny Jesus before the cock crowed twice. Mk.14:30.
78. The cock crowed once. Mt.26:74.
The cock crowed twice. Mk.14:72.
79. Peter makes his first denial to a maid and some others. Mt.26:69,70.
It was only to the maid. Mk.14:66-68; Lk.22:56,57; Jn.18:17.
80. Peter’s second denial was to another maid. Mt.26:71,72.
It was to the same maid. Mk.14:69,70.
It was to a man and not a maid. Lk.22:58.
It was to more than one person. Jn.18:25.
81. Peter’s third denial was to several bystanders. Mt.26:73,74; Mk.14:69,70.
It was to one person. Lk.22:59,60.
It was to a servant. Jn.18:26,27.
82. The chief priests bought the field. Mt.27:6,7.
Judas bought the field. Acts 1:16-19.
83. Judas threw down the money and left. Mt.27:5.
Judas used the coins to buy the field. Acts 1:18.
84. Judas hanged himself. Mt.27:5.
Judas fell headlong and burst his head open. Acts 1:18.
85. Jesus did not answer any of the charges. Mt.27:12-14; Lk.23:9.
Jesus answered some of the charges. Mk.14:61,62.
Jesus answered all of the charges. Jn.18:33-37.
86. Jesus said that eternal life would be given to all that were given to him. Jn.11:27-29; Jn.17:12.
Jesus released Judas in order to keep this promise. Jn.18:5-9.
87. The chief priests and elders persuade the people. Mt.27:20.
Only the chief priests persuade the people. Mk.15:11.
The chief priests and the people persuade themselves. Lk.23:13-23.
88. Jesus is given a scarlet robe. Mt.27:28.
Jesus is given a purple robe. Mk.15:17; Jn.19:2.
Jesus is given a gorgeous robe. Lk.23:11.
89. The sign says, “This is Jesus the King of the Jews”. Mt.27:37.
The sign says, “The King of the Jews”. Mk.15:26.
In three languages, the sign says, “This is the King of the Jews”. Lk.23:38.
In the same three languages, the sign says, “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews”. Jn.19:19,20.
90. Jesus asks God, The Father, why he has forsaken him. Mt.27:46.
Jesus said that he and The Father were one in the same. Jn.10:30; Jn.17:11,21,22.
91. The centurion says, “Truly this was the son of God”. Mt.27:54.
The centurion says, “Truly this man was the son of God”. Mk.15:39.
The centurion says, “Certainly, this was a righteous man”. Lk.23:47.
There was no centurion. Jn.19:31-37.
92. Jesus was crucified at the third hour. Mk.15:25.
Jesus was still before Pilate at the sixth hour. Jn.19:13,14.
93. The women looked on from “afar”. Mt.27:55; Mk.15:40; Lk.23:49.
The women were very close. Jn.19:25.
94. The last recorded words of Jesus were:
Version 1: “Eli, Eli …My God, My God why have you forsaken me” Mt.27:46.
Version 2: “Eloi, Eloi…My God, My God why have you forsaken me” Mk.15:34.
Version 3: “Father, into your hands I commend my spirit”. Lk.23:46.
Version 4: “It is finished”. Jn.19:30.
95. A guard was placed at the tomb the day after the burial. Mt.27:65,66.
No guard is mentioned. Mk.15:44-47; Lk.23:52-56; Jn.19:38-42.
96. Only those keeping the words of Jesus will never see death. Jn.8:51.
Jesus’ disciples will be killed. Mt.24:3-9.
All men die once. Heb.9:27.
97. Upon their arrival, the stone was still in place. Mt.28:1 2.
Upon their arrival, the stone had been removed. Mk.16:4; Lk.24:2; Jn.20:1.
98. There was an earthquake. Mt.28:2.
There was no earthquake. Mk.16:5; Lk.24:2-4; Jn.20:12.
99. The visitors ran to tell the disciples. Mt.28:8.
The visitors told the eleven and all the rest. Lk.24:9.
The visitors said nothing to anyone. Mk.16:8.
100. Jesus first resurrection appearance was right at the tomb. Jn.20:12-14.
Jesus first resurrection appearance was fairly near the tomb. Mt.28:8,9.
Jesus first resurrection appearance was on the road to Emmaus. Lk.24:13-16.
101. One doubted. Jn.20:24.
Some doubted. Mt.28:17.
All doubted. Mk.16:11; Lk.24:11,14.
102. Jesus said that his blood was shed for many. Mk.14:24.
Jesus said his blood was shed for his disciples. Lu.22:20.
103. Simon of Cyrene was forced to bear the cross of Jesus. Mt.27:32; Mk.15:21; Lu.23:26.
Jesus bore his own cross. Jn.19:16,17.
104. Jesus was offered vinegar and gall to drink. Mt.27:34.
Jesus was offered vinegar to drink. Jn.19:29,30.
Jesus was offered wine and myrrh to drink. Mk.15:23.
105. Jesus refused the drink offered him. Mk.15:23.
Jesus tasted the drink offered and then refused. Mt.27:34.
Jesus accepted the drink offered him. Jn.19:30.
106. Both “thieves” mocked Jesus on the cross. Mt. 27:44; Mk.15:32.
One “thief” sided with Jesus on the cross. Lu.23:39-41.
107. Joseph of Arimathaea boldly asked for the body of Jesus. Mk.15:43.
Joseph of Arimathaea secretly asked for the body of Jesus. Jn.19:38.
108. Jesus was laid in a nearby tomb. Mk.15:46; Lu.23:53; Jn.19:41.
Jesus was laid in Joseph’s new tomb. Mt.27:59,60.
109. A great stone was rolled in front of the tomb. Mt.27:60; Mk.15:46.
There was nothing in front of the tomb. Lu.23:55; Jn.19:41.
110. Nicodemus prepared the body with spices. Jn.19:39,40.
Failing to notice this, the women bought spices to prepare the body later. Mk. 16:1; Lu.23:55,56.
111. The body was anointed. Jn.19:39,40.
The body was not anointed. Mk.15:46 to 16:1; Lk.23:55 to 24:1.
112. The women bought materials before the sabbath. Lu.23:56.
The women bought materials after the sabbath. Mk.16:1.
113. Jesus was first seen by Cephas, then the twelve. 1 Cor.15:5.
Jesus was first seen by the two Marys. Mt.28:1,8,9.
Jesus was first seen by Mary Magdalene. Mk.16:9; Jn.20:1,14,15.
Jesus was first seen by Cleopas and others. Lu.24:17,18.
Jesus was first seen by the disciples. Acts 10:40,41.
114. The two Marys went to the tomb. Mt.28:1.
The two Marys and Salome went to the tomb. Mk.16:1.
Several women went to the tomb. Lu.24:10.
Only Mary Magdalene went to the tomb. Jn.20:1.
115. It was dawn when Mary went to the tomb. Mt.28:1; Mk.16:2.
It was dark when Mary went to the tomb. Jn.20:1.
116. An angel sat on the stone at the door of the tomb. Mt.28:2.
A man was sitting inside the tomb. Mk.16:5.
117. Two men were standing inside the tomb. Lk.24:3,4.
Two angels were sitting inside the tomb. Jn.20:12.
118. Peter did not go into the tomb but stooped and looked inside. Lk.24:12.
Peter did go into the tomb, and another disciple stooped and looked inside. Jn.20:3-6.
119. After the resurrection, the disciples held Jesus by the feet. Mt.28:9.
After the resurrection, Jesus told Thomas to touch his side. John 20:27.
After the resurrection, Jesus said that he was not to be touched. Jn.20:17.
120. Mary first saw Jesus at the tomb. Jn.20:11-15.
Mary first saw Jesus on her way home. Mt.28:8-10.
121. The women entered the tomb. Mk.16:5; Lk.24:3.
The women stayed outside the tomb. Jn.20:11.
122. The disciples were frightened when they saw Jesus. Lk.24:36,37.
The disciples were glad when they first saw Jesus. Jn.20:20.
123. Twelve disciples saw Jesus. 1 Cor.15:5.
Eleven disciples saw Jesus. Thomas was not there. Mt.28:16,17; Jn.20:19-25.
124. The disciples doubted that Jesus had risen from the dead. Mt.28:17.
The Pharisees and chief priests believed it possible. Mt.27:62-66.
125. Jesus ascended on the third day after the resurrection. Lk.24:21,50,51.
Jesus ascended the same day as the crucifixion. Lk.23:42 43.
Jesus ascended forty days after the resurrection. Acts 1:3,9.
126. At the time of the ascension, there were about 120 brethren. Acts 1:15.
At the time of the ascension, there were about 500 brethren. 1 Cor.15:6.
127. The moneychangers incident occurred at the end of Jesus’ career. Mt.21:11,12.
The moneychangers incident occurred at the beginning of Jesus’ career. Jn.2:11-15.
128. Zacharias was the son of Jehoida, the priest. 2 Chr.24:20.
Jesus said that Zacharias was the son of Barachias. Mt.23:35. (Note: The name Barachias or Barachiah does not appear in the OT.)
129. The coming of the kingdom will be accompanied by signs and miracles. Mt.24:29-33; Mk.13:24-29.
It will not be accompanied by signs and miracles since it occurs from within. Lk.17:20,21.
130. The kingdom was prepared from the beginning. Mt.25:34.
Jesus said that he was going to go and prepare the kingdom. Jn.14:2,3.
131. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin. Mk.3:29.
All sins are forgivable. Acts 13:39; Col.2:13; 1 Jn.1:9.
132. The ascension took place while the disciples were seated together at a table. Mk.16:14-19.
The ascension took place outdoors at Bethany. Lk.24:50,51.
The ascension took place outdoors at Mt. Olivet. Acts 1:9-12.
133. The holy spirit was with John from before he was born. Lk.1:15,41.
The holy spirit was with Elizabeth before John’s birth. Lk.1:41.
The holy spirit was with Zechariah. Lk.1:67.
The holy spirit was with Simeon. Lk.2:25.
The holy spirit is obtained by asking. Lk.11:13.
The holy spirit did not come into the world until after Jesus had departed. Jn.7:39; Jn.16:7; Acts 1:3-8.
134. Sometimes God is responsible for unbelief. 2 Thes.2:11,12.
Sometimes Jesus is responsible for unbelief. Mk.4:11,12.
The devil causes unbelief. Lk.8:12.
135. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer. 1 Jn.3:15.
If anyone claims to love God but hates his brother, he is a liar. 1 Jn.4:20.
No one can be a disciple of Jesus unless he hates his brother. Lk.14:26.
136. Believers do not come into judgment. Jn.5:24.
All people come into judgment. Mt.12:36; 2 Cor.5:10; Heb.9:27; 1 Pet.1:17; Jude 14,15; Rev.20:12,13.
137. Jesus says that, if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is true. Jn.8:14.
Jesus says that, if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is not true. Jn.5:31.
138. Men can choose whether or not to believe. Jn.5:38-47.
Only God chooses who will believe. Jn.6:44.
139. None of Jesus’ followers would be lost. Jn.10:27-29.
Some of Jesus’ followers would be lost. 1 Tim.4:1.
140. Jesus is the ruling prince of this world. Rev.1:5.
The prince of this world will be cast out. Jn.12:31.
141. Jesus says all men will be saved. Jn.3:17.
Only 144,000 virgin men will be saved. Rev. 14:1-4.
142. God wants all men to be saved. 1 Tim.2:3,4; 2 Pet.3:9.
God does not want all men to be saved. Jn.12:40.
143. Peter asks Jesus where he is going. Jn.13:36.
Thomas asks Jesus where he is going. Jn.14:5.
Jesus said that no one asked where he was going. Jn.16:5.
144. Jesus lost only one disciple. Jn.17:12.
Jesus lost no disciples. Jn.18:9.
145. Jesus came into the world to bear witness to the truth. Jn.18:37.
The truth has always been evident. Rom.1:18-20.
146. During his first resurrection appearance, Jesus gave his disciples the holy spirit. Jn.20:22.
The holy spirit was given to the disciples after his ascension. Acts 1:3-8.
147. The world could not contain all that could be written of Jesus. Jn.21:25.
All was written. Acts.1:1.
148. Obey the laws of men for it is the will of God. 1 Pet.2:13-15.
The disciples disobey the council. Acts 5:40-42.
149. Obey God, not men. Acts 5:29.
Obey men. It is God’s will. Rom.13:1-4; 1 Pet.2:13-15.
150. God hated Esau and loved Jacob even before they were born. Rom.9:10-13.
God shows no partiality and treats all alike. Acts 10:34; Rom.2:11.
151. All who have sinned without the law will perish without the law. Rom.2:12.
Where there is no law there is no sin or transgression. Rom.4:15.
152. Doers of the law will be justified. Rom.2:13.
Doers of the law will not be justified. Rom.3:20; Gal.3:11.
153. The law has dominion. Rom.7:1.
The law does not have dominion. Rom.6:14.
154. The law was the result of sin. Gal.3:19.
Sin is the result of breaking the law. 1 Jn.3:4.
155. Those of “God” cannot sin. 1 Jn.3:9.
Those of “God” can sin. 1 Jn.1:7 8.
156. The anointing of Jesus teaches right from wrong. 1 Jn.2:27.
The law written on the heart and conscience teaches right from wrong. Rom.2:15.
157. Abraham was justified by faith. Heb.11:8.
Abraham was justified by works. Jms.2:21.
Abraham was not justified by works. Rom.4:2.
158. It is not good to eat or drink anything that might cause your brother to stumble or be offended. Rom.14:21.
Let no one pass judgment on you in matters of food or drink. Col.2:16.
159. It is better that widows should not remarry. 1 Cor.7:8.
It is better that young widows should remarry. 1 Tim.5:11-14.
160. The god of this world blinds people to the gospel. 2 Cor.4:4.
There is only one god. 1 Cor.8:4.
161. The powers of this world are wicked, so fight against them. Eph.6:11-13.
All powers are ordained of God and, if you resist, you are damned. Rom.13:1,2.
162. Bear one another’s burdens. Gal.6:2.
Bear your own burdens. Gal.6:5.
163. Anyone who even greets a non-believer shares his wicked work. 2 Jn.10,11.
Always be ready to answer any man concerning your faith. 1 Pet.3:15.
164. All of the grass on the earth is burned up. Rev.8:7.
The army of locusts are instructed not to harm the grass. Rev.9:4.
165. Only “The Father” knows. Mk.13:32.
“Jesus” and “The Father” are one. Jn.10:30; 17:11,21,22.
166. Jesus said that he would judge. Jn.5:22,27-30; Jn.9:39.
Jesus said that he would not judge. Jn.8:15; Jn.12:47.
Jesus said that The Father judges. Jn.12:48,49.
Jesus said that The Father does not judge. Jn.5:22.
Jesus said that his disciples would judge. Lk.22:30.
167. He that does not believe is damned. Mk.16:16.
Thomas did not believe and was not damned. Jn.20:27-29.
168. “When his branch is yet tender”. Mt.24:32.
“When her branch is yet tender”. Mk.13:28.
169. Jesus is God. Jn.10:30.
Jesus is the “image” of God. 2 Cor.4:4.
Jesus was a man approved by God. Acts 2:22.
170. Jesus and God are one in the same. Jn.1:1.
Jesus is beside himself. Mk.16:19; Acts 2:32,33; 7:55; Rom.8:34; etc.
171. Jesus is the Son of God. Jn.6:69; Jn.20:31.
Jesus is the Son of Man. Mt.18:11; Lk.21:27.
172. Paul states that he does not lie. Rom.9:1; 2 Cor.11:31; Gal.1:20; 1 Tim.2:7.
Paul states that he does lie. Rom.3:7.
173. Paul said that he does not use trickery. 1 Thes.2:3.
Paul admits to using trickery. 2 Cor.12:16.
174. Paul says that circumcision is nothing. 1 Cor.7:19.
Paul says that circumcision is profitable. Rom.2:25; Rom.3:1,2.
175. Do not covet. Rom.7:7; Rom.13:9.
Paul says covet. 1 Cor.12:31; 1 Cor.14:39.
176. Paul teaches not to steal. Eph.4:28.
Paul admits to stealing. 2 Cor.11:8.
177. Paul was assured that he would not be hurt. Acts 18:9,10.
Paul was often physically abused. 2 Cor.11:23-27.
178. Paul states that the law is necessary. Rom.3:31.
Paul states that the law is not necessary. Rom.6:14.
179. Jesus said to go and baptize. Mt.28:19.
Paul said he was not sent to baptize. 1 Cor.1:17.
180. Paul said he was not sent to baptize but to preach. 1 Cor.1:17.
Paul baptized. 1 Cor.1:16.
181. Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law. Mt.5:17-19.
Paul said otherwise. Eph.2:15.
182. Jesus said that God did not condemn the world. Jn. 3:17.
Paul said that God did condemn the world. Rom.5:18.
183. Those present at Paul’s conversion stood. Acts 9:7.
They fell to the ground. Acts 26:14.
184. Those present at Paul’s conversion heard a voice but saw nothing. Acts 9:7.
Those present at Paul’s conversion saw a light but heard nothing. Acts 22:9.
185. Shortly after his conversion, Paul went to Damascus where he spent some time with the apostles. Acts 9:19.
Paul went to Damascus three years later and saw only Peter and James. Gal.1:18,19.
186. Shortly after his conversion, Paul went to Damascus and then to Jerusalem. Acts 9:18-26.
Shortly after his conversion, Paul went to Arabia, then to Damascus, and then, 3 years later, to Jerusalem. Gal.1:17,18.
187. In Damascus, the governor attempts to seize Paul. 2 Cor.11:32.
In Damascus, the Jews attempt to seize Paul. Acts 9:22,23.
188. The holy spirit forbids preaching in Asia. Acts 16:6.
Paul preaches in Asia anyway. Acts 19:8-10.
189. Paul said he would not be a servant of Christ if he tried to please men. Gal.1:10.
Paul said that he tried to please men. 1 Cor.10:33.
190. Paul says that he was the chief of all sinners. 1 Tim.1:15.
He who commits sin is of the devil. Children of God cannot sin. 1 Jn.3:8-10.
191. Paul said that Jesus is the judge. 2 Tim.4:1.
Paul said that God is the judge. Heb.12:23.
Paul said that the saints would judge. 1 Cor.6:2.
192. Paul said that Jesus was the Son of God. Rom.1:3,4.
Paul said that Jesus was just a man. Heb.7:24.
193. Do not boast. Lk.18:14.
Do not be proud. Rom.11:20; 1 Pet. 5:5.
Paul proudly boasts. 2 Cor.11:16-18; Gal.2:9-11.
194. Jesus commends the church at Ephesus for discerning the lying apostles. Rev. 2:1,2.
Paul was the apostle to Ephesus. Eph.1:1.
There were several men by the name of William Wallace who were Universalists, actually:
William Wallace Curry
William Wallace Rose
William Wallace Sprague
William Wallace Fenn
William Wallace Wilson
I'm not sure about Braveheart. :)
Anonymous, obviously we do not have time to answer all of these supposed contradictions. It is also obvious that you have not researched all of these - many are very easy to explain, giving evidence that you have not researched these yourself. It almost seems as if you want there to be errors in the Bible - simply accepting these charges at face value. Again, your precommitments are very apparent. I would be happy to answer one or two specific charges if you like.
PS- where did you copy this list from? Where did you copy the advocates of universalism list? It seems as if you are coming dangerously close to plagiarism in several places on this thread.
"1. Jesus' lineage was traced through David's son Solomon. Mt.1:6.
Jesus' lineage was traced through David's son Nathan. Lk.3:31."
One is of Mary, and the other of Joseph.
"2. The announcement of the special birth came before conception. Lk.1:26-31.
The announcement of the special birth came after conception. Mt.1:18-21."
These don't even come close to being contradictions Anon.
I truly belive if Jonathan went through all these, and showed you how they are not contradictions, you would still find fault somewhere.
The rich man died and went to hell, and he asked father Abraham to send Lazarus back to his brothers, who were in need of repentance.
Abraham says they have the Bible, and if they will not hear the Bible, then they will not listen to a man who was raised back to life.
Anon, I pray the Lord would open your eyes to see that all 66 books of the Scriptures are His Word, and His Word is truth.
If you really seek the truth, then you will find it, and you won't be a Universalist any longer.
Sorry, I didn't know that MLA format was required for blogging. I've not time to include end-text and in-text citations (I have real book chapters and articles to write), but perhaps this will help:
See self-contradictions in the Bible by William Henry Burr, first published in 1859 and republished by Prometheus Press in 1987.
Much of my info on universalism (including the list of proponents) comes from the web source I listed on 11/27: http://www.tentmaker.org.
And, yes, you can explain away many of these statements fairly easily. But not some, because they're contradictions, according to the helpful definition MCG provided.
I "want" there to be contradictions in the Bible? An odd statement. I don't know if I would say I *want* them to be there but does it diminish my faith that they are? Absolutely not.
In fact, I think it strengthens it, because I'm careful to read and think deeply about God's Word and to seek answers through my relationship with God, in prayer and through the Holy Spirit. Would I pray as often for understanding if I thought the Bible was so literal -- so easy to understand? Probably not.
My agenda is this: To reveal the interpreting and contextualizing you do to support your vision of God. -- that you have to do when reading the complex work that is the Bible and the complex nature that is God.
But, really, I think I've done this. Even Don has said that Christ was illustrating a point about Hell with the "pluck out your eye" verse. -- that it wasn't meant to be taken literally, or he would have already done it.
So, my final point is this: Please don't belittle and condemn me for the choices of interpretation I make, because I have just as much right to my choice of interpretation as you have to yours.
In Christian love.
"So, my final point is this: Please don't belittle and condemn me for the choices of interpretation I make, because I have just as much right to my choice of interpretation as you have to yours."
And that, ladies and gentlemen, highlights that whole problem, doesn't it? Who are we, any of us, to say that we have a right to interpret Scripture however we want?
We don't, and Anon have demonstrated nicely what kinds of things someone can claim to glean from the Bible when "I" am my own rule of faith.
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